RV Frame Flex The Real Problem!

Just a quick update of how to make this even better is some have suggested bolting through to the outside of the wall. As you could imagine this would be much stronger and full-proof than the lags but obviously has complications like hardware penetrating the exterior fiberglass. I love the idea of trying to get a bolt inside the wall or something like a Rivnut but there are difficulties to make that happen. The lowest hanging fruit is to use an Epoxy adhesive injected into the wall that the lag is then held in place by. I am going to try the Epoxy and see how that does to see if the easiest solution will work. Some people were asking about the spacing of our holes, which appeared a random to me, but here is what they are from rear to front since I had the back 2 for reference. 8 9/16", 10 3/8", 9 1/2", 9 1/4". Sorry metric would have been nice I know. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSJpKWELlBg&t=376s

I’m no structural engineer but I have a hard time believing 2 lag bolts in a 5 hole frame would pass a structure audit. Excellent video Jared!

It is totally asinine to buy a brand new fifth wheel and then expect the owners to take the carpeting out and check the bolts. I understand maintenance starts as soon as you take possession but this is ridiculous. When calling GD, instead of telling you to add lag bolts, they should have apologized and fixed it right away for free. It appears their solution to problems is to tell you anything to get you off the phone completely. In my RV market search, GD is off my list.

Instead of having wood inside those narrow channels, and using lag bolts, they should have captured nuts in those channels so the bolts can be directly threaded into the channel.

I have a2021 Reflection 31MB and dealt with this about 6 months ago. I added 2 more lags on each side of the bedroom - total of 4. Due to excessive pin box movement independent of the upper deck, off came the front filon. I only had access to 2 lags per side due to upper deck flooring. All 4 were undersized and loose. Upsized to 1/2” and then spot welded the head to the frame to prevent loosening. Ugly part…the frame strap supporting wall only had 3 screws, sloppily installed at an angle, and counter sink screws were used on flat surface. All showed signs of pulling out. Replaced all frame strap screws with 6 ledger lags per side. Buttoned up and it’s a different trailer when underway. Solid feel and flex is what you would expect when in tow. Minimal,inadequate, and incorrect fastening of upper deck to frame. Poor construction by Grand Design in my case.

I’ve had a fair amount of experience with this issue on my 2019 320 VanLeigh 5er (installed sleeve anchors myself 3yrs ago, had manufacture add wood into the channels, and last summer Tiffin pulled cap and added internal aluminum structure to the walls as well as additional bolts etc between frame and wall). I’ve also watched many, many frame flex videos over the last few weeks just for curiosity and entertainment. Your video was BY FAR THE BEST ONE OUT THERE about understanding the real problem, being objective, and recommending some real solutions. Great job!!

The fact a lag bolt is used instead of a threaded (bolt and nut) fastener is a major issue and should be the focus. As an mech engineer with 18+ years of machine/structure design I would never spec a lag bolt into composite aluminum/wood, even if its in shear, especially on a mobile unit that is under constant vibration/stress/strain when in motion. The engineers that approved this should be ashamed. Period.

Imagine having to go through this with your safety related problems with your vehicle. The RV industry has convinced us that their products are of questionable build quality and the related problems are to be expected. They’ve also gradually exposed us to the concept of “you probably caused it” or “not our problem that’s the supplier’s problem”. From 5 decades of RV ownership I can honestly say that they’re almost all poorly built and as long as we keep buying them they have no motivation to build them better.

Well stated opinions in this video! Just my opinion. Lag bolts are made to attach something to wood that is continuous along the threads. Putting a lag bolt into aluminum tube and a tiny piece of wood that will absolutely split, is a misapplication of a fastener.

I follow you and Big Truck Big RV because of your balanced and reasonable approach to RV issues. Thanks.

I'm a welder, I went from a job doing military items inspected by a in plant government inspector (that was quality before quantity) to a job that was mass production (quantity over quality) and the unwritten rule was only fix what the inspector catches! That's how the company increases it's profits. So sad. Not all welders worked by that unwritten rule!

Still not satisfied why GD left 3 lag bolt holes w/o lag bolts installed. Great video!

Great video! I discovered a crack in my side wall last October and quickly learned that I had the dreaded frame flex issue. My rig is a 35' 2020 Keystone Alpine. The shop found, like yours, that many of the lag bolt holes were empty, and also most of the dead wood inside the square tube was missing. But the biggest problem with mine was that the philon siding was not glued / bonded to the aluminum structure except around the edges. I am told that the primary strength in the side walls comes from the bond between the fiberglass and the aluminum. In my case there were no broken welds. Just too much flexing which caused the side wall to eventually fail. Thanks again for this discussion, as I think it explains how important it is to actually build the rig to the engineers specs and stop cutting corners.

You, JD, Josh & everyone else doing videos on this issue are ALL feeding us BS hoping that we are as stupid as you think we are. The REAL ISSUE is that Lippert and ALL RV manufacturers with these issues, are not willing to accept any responsibility for building a piece of crap. Relying on a few lag bolts into 1'"of wood to support 14,000 lbs of trailer is ridiculous. The whole concept of the side wall being such a big part of the structural integrity is backwards thinking. The side walls should only be additional support. AS for the welds, if they were any good, they would not break, the surrounding metal would fail first. Jared, you're right All owners should be inspecting their units on a regular schedule . They should be looking at tires, roof condition, caulking, visually checking suspension components, but to expect owners to inspect for welds and loose mounting bolts is crazy. At most they should not ignore any body cracks. But it should never be expected that they take any responsibility for the failing frame. Would you take any responsibility if your truck frame started to fail, "HELL NO" you wouldn't. You'd be your truck dealers worst nightmare. So why is an RV any different. Wake up people!!

Jared, with all the people talking about this, you were the first person to say that everyone has some responsibility for these problems. I was taught you have to take care of your stuff if you want to keep it nice. I also agree with others here that if there were five holes, there should have been five bolts. I would rather see a flat bolt head on the outside wall than I know it goes the whole way thru. Lag bolts seem like the wrong fasteners for this application. Again, great balanced take, keep up the good work. Safe travels and happy camping.

Jared, I have been a NRVIA Certified Inspector going on 5 years now. I been following your channel for several years. This problem is a lot bigger than both Lippert or GD are letting on. IMHO the problem is two fold questionable welds along with under engineering the connection between the frame and house. I'm not an engineer however 3 of my kids are..Lol Relying on two undersized lag bolts to hold one of the most stressed areas together is negligence imo. The penny pinchers at the RV factories are going to cost the companies a lot more money in the long run with these very short sighted cost saving efforts. Owners of these larger toy haulers and 5th wheels should be very concerned about resale values. I've already had numerous customers that have asked me to inspect toy haulers to see if they have frame issues. Then I have to break the bad news to them that it's not possible to tell if there are broken welds or missing components without tearing things apart and we just don't do that as part of an RV inspection. As part of my consulting business I have advised potential buyers what to look for and if there are any concerns to walk away and they have ! It's already affecting potential purchases and I believe that will continue to grow as buyers gain knowledge of the issue not just with GD but all manufacturers of these larger units. Kudos to Brinkley for being forthcoming about the issue and at least attempting to prevent the problem with a better connection. I own a GD trailer built pre- COVID. I wouldn't even consider a GD product if I decide to upgrade to a larger unit. Not a chance....

I think the manufacturers, especially Lippert, could probably also invest in technology to help make sure the welders are able to consistently get good, fast welds. It might be overkill to start deploying robot welders like cars use, especially since they make so many versions of the frames, but that doesn't mean that new welders with features that help make sure the person doing the welding can focus on the welding itself while the machine handles the adjustments or using different types of welding could help ensure flawless welds every time. If nothing else, it would take some pressure off the welders and allow them to really focus and not feel a time crunch. From friends I know who work in Elkhart at some of the manufacturers, they use every trick in the book to put the, mainly contractors, doing the actual assembly under a time crunch to ensure they're always trying to go as fast as possible. While that may roll more units off the line, experience has shown, across any industry, that constantly trying to operate at the absolute maximum pace will always lead to compromises somewhere. I've been told that part of why there's so much sawdust coming out of new RVs is because they no longer budget time for the contractors to clean up, if they spend time doing that they're getting fewer units done and getting paid less. That anecdote alone tells you a lot.

Jared, you have done a fantastic job explaining this problem. I do not presently own a towable but own a class A and have owned 8 RV’s over 40 years. I’m a Retired heavy construction professional with an engineering degree. You could not have explained this any better or clearer. It’s not all the manufacturers fault, but they have their share of responsibility to make these better. Two bolts may have worked on paper but obviously didn’t meet actual use and road conditions. I get why people are upset and it is harder to own an RV if you’re not able to do some work on them, maintain them, weight them and understand them. It’s sold to them as a carefree lifestyle. None of my 8 rigs were without issues. You have created a video everyone, regardless what type RV they are considering, should view. Thank you

As a full time RVer touring the US, we see a lot. The number of 40ft+ toy haulers that seem to be loaded to the max is normal. While we were in St George UT., I saw a couple toy haulers loaded with equipment STACKED in the back. The overhang past the rear axle on these units is huge. The example I refer to above, the driver had to set additional jacks under the rear frame before he opened the ramp. If this is required, I would assume the mfg would have provided jacks at those points. And who knows how that trailer handled going down the road at highway speed with so much weight on the backend. Ownership responsibility is absolutely required. At the same time, mfg - as you clearly showed in this video (Grand Design!) - should build these just a bit better. Like using 5 one half inch lags rather than 2 three-eights lags. After all, they drilled holes for 5. Spend the extra $6 per side and do it right. And BTBRV video was good, but like you showed on your trailer, they can talk all they want, but the quality just isn't there. I guess we need government regulation here since we're talking about serious investments in RVs, and dealers/mfg wash their hands as soon as you're off the lot. And if you finance, you agree to sign away any real rights in arbitration. Look at your contract. Another great video.

Thanks for this info. I saw a gap next to my stairs into the bedroom. Did place two additional lag screws, but didn't get the gap to completely close. This was several years ago. I am going back and beef it up as you suggested. Thanks again.