positive masculinity is overrated

I absolutely loathe that we default to Hollywood stars and celebrities for role models.

Healthy masculinity, healthy femininity = being a good person!

The thing about Rocky is that he's not suppose to be an "Alpha male". The movie always paints him as an imperfect man down on his luck, but also a man working to the bone to improve. What was said in the film Rocky Balboa, perfectly summarizes what Rocky is all about. Especially in the first movie: "it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward. How much you can take and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done." Most men can never relate to Rocky's unique experiences, but what is relatable is the complete helplesslness, stress, and odysseistic hurdles that men face. And it can come in many forms like work, family, school, personal health. Anything in life, you name it. Any man who uses this movie as a testament to "you're not a real man, if you're not Rocky" is completely ridiculous. Rocky is all of us in some form or another.

Don't pick Rocky as an example if you never seen it(which I must assume if you got it so wrong). He's basically the antithesis of what you portray him as but actually what you're advocating for.

What entertains me is the idea of men in the 1700s adjusting their wigs, putting on their makeup and high heels whilst ranting that “men aren’t men anymore” Oh how the tables have turned. EDIT: revisiting this comment section every now and then is nothing short of joyful. It’s a little joke guys, chill out.

I disagree with giving “fem” and ”masc” qualities beyond outward appearances. Being “caring” shouldn’t be “fem”. It’s a state of being and shouldn’t be “gendered”. I see “toxic” masculinity and “toxic” femininity as being a sh!t person and then using your gender as an excuse. To be “healthy” fem/masc you need to be a good, balanced person (or actively trying to be) and that’s it.

Not to diminish anything that's been said here but it's also worth discussing the role women play in reinforcing harmful stereotypes about masculinity. Calling certain behaviours "gay" or "feminine traits", or even calling regular ways of expressing emotion or vulnerability "red flags" are arguably more damaging to a man than his mate telling him to harden up.

Rocky is about a lower class man who is very empathetic, kind and wants connection with others working hard to overcome horrific poverty and have a better life. I really recommend watching movies before you talk about them.

You should rewatch Rocky 1. He is cripplingly insecure, socially graceless and a constant loser in the film. He even loses the final fight to Apollo Creed. He is exploited by the mob and promoters and is damaged by their exploitation, physically and emotionally. His struggle in the film isn't becoming a great boxer, it is having self respect. I think the message that men in subordinate positions in society can have self respect is a valuable one, but I do want to point out that the race politics of the film are pretty rough.

The appeal of Rocky, for me at least, lies not in his unattainable achievements or physique, but instead in his determination, hard work and unswerving drive to climb from the bottom to the top of his profession. Overall, the story of Rocky isn't about being the champion per se, rather, it's about doing better. Also, he doesn't go it alone. He has a trainer, Mickey.

The list of positive masculinity role models referenced seems to suggest the main attributes wanted are to be rich, famous and really, really good looking.

Masculinity is not ever defined in a fashion magazine.

It's hard not to notice that most of the "healthy masculine" role models named are all very conventionally attractive people, just with different fashion choices. I think it takes a lot more than fashion to ensure someone has a "healthy" perspective on gender. I wish more time was spent on articulating actual examples and quotes from these people rather than showing pictures of them looking cute in their cardigans.

You need to watch Rocky again because it seems you didn't get it. Rocky is a dirt poor tender guy that is reaching for love. Boxing is the set, is the representation of that battle for love and life that poor poeple go thru every day. It is amazing to me how it is so easy for poeple to talk about everything BUT class.

I say this as a straight guy, but I feel we're just waaaaay too hemmed in from both the leftists ("masculinity is toxic!") and the rightists ("Be a real man, pussy!"). I just want to live a nice life. I want to play my video games, go hiking on weekends, read my books, date a nice (preferably attractive and feminine) girl, and have job that doesn't treat me like shit. I want to be able to express myself emotionally. Talk about the things that frustrate me, express my love, my fear, my frustrations, my disappointments. And yet, no matter how much the world changes, I still feel like I'm expected to stay in my little box. Sure, I can now wear sequins or whatever, but if I go on a date and talk about how rough it is getting laid off, I'm still afraid (out of experience) of being called a weak loser. Women have been liberated from being domestic/sex objects and subservient, which I'm all for, but I'm still stuck with the expectation of being a "success object". We need to get away from Masculinity is good/evil. This is a false dichotomy. Masculinity is good and evil, as is femininity. Patriarchy, toxic masculinity, etc. is a simplification, it simplifies and conceals a reality that's much more nuanced and complicated then the ideologues on either side want to acknowledge.

Regardless of the gender politics, Stallone wrote Rocky intending it to be a love story. Boxing itself is a metaphor for Rocky finding his worth / place in society as a struggling, beat up fighter (and finds it in his family: Adrian, Mickey, his son). As the films progress it just goes to show that whatever Rocky dealt with all that mattered to him is his family.

Overconfidence is highly rewarded in our society, especially in terms of economics and finding a partner. Until you change those things, you will not get rid of toxic state of the world.

What you said about cultural capital got me thinking. I grew up in a middle-class family in suburban India, and while I do have a certain amount of cultural capital, it can't really be compared to what most boys growing up in the west possess. The school environment was a bit rough, and it was common for boys to get into fights and be beaten up by boys of rival gangs. I was a spectacled studious kid who scored high marks and never got into that sort of trouble. And yet at many points in my life, I encountered situations where I either did get beaten up or came very close. The experiences taught me to perform toxic masculinity as a survival mechanism. Not the misogyny part of it but definitely the anger and the overconfidence. And I'll be honest here, it unlocked doors for me. When I was a MANLY man, full of rage and confidence, who'd f*ck your shit up if you looked at him the wrong way, society gave me respect. My opinions mattered. I was treated like an adult. Nobody saw the gangly, pimply, bespectacled teenager floundering beneath. Other boys were more wary of me. They gave me space, because they thought that my confidence must be rooted in something substantial, and that I was crazy enough to hurt them and not care what happened to me. But it sucked growing up like that. It felt like constantly being in survival mode. It was only when I got an admission to a very prestigious college that things started changing. Suddenly everyone around me had great cultural capital. They came from privilege. Physical violence was uncouth, and rage was seen as peasant behaviour. Equality was cool. Fortunately I found a feminist Professor who shaped my understanding of the world, and what it means to be a good person. If not for her, I could've easily transitioned from performing toxic masculinity to performing positive masculinity, without any true transformation. I'm not sure if I have any answers. But I do think that when it comes to role models, a person actually present in your life can have a far greater impact than a social media personality. We need to learn to talk to kids. And because society shouts different things at people born female and those born male, we need to learn to talk differently to them. While the end of the journey, to be a good person, might look similar for everyone, we all start in wildly different places, and so the conversations must be different as well.

Tell me you've haven't actually watched Rocky without telling me you haven't actually watched Rocky.

I think the biggest problem for me is very obvious. Half of a man's life is about women, and men will react and adapt (generationally) to what women like and need in each generation. The problem (which is actually a good thing) is that women are no longer confined to traditional gender roles. They are not dependent on male financial security or the male lifestyle. Women are gaining significant advantages in our society in a relatively short period of time, and men simply cannot adapt fast enough.There are women who love traditional men, women who love modern, deconstructive men, women who want something in between, and plenty of women who genuinely don't even want any men; they prefer to live independently. This is very problematic because men are still held to societal standards. They are expected to "be a man," but since women no longer have a specific definition of what makes a man, men are completely lost on what they should do. Now Imagine a young, confused man without any clear model of what women want encountering a multimillionaire confidently expressing opinions as facts. It becomes quite obvious to me that this is a significant issue.