Record Cleaning Debate with Esposito, Fremer & Patrick

I also tried steel wool with great results. No more grooves, perfectly smooth. Dead quiet vinyl.

Hi Mazzy, Thanks for hosting this. It was interesting but did have one recurring issue, namely that none of the participants understand the relationship between surfactants and the cavitation process from a scientific perspective. Without this knowledge, everyone is unfortunately resorting to poor analogies and misconception. To attempt to clarify: from a scientific process perspective, cavitation is clearly aided by the presence of a surfactant. The role of a surfactant is to reduce surface tension. When surface tension is reduced, cavitation levels increase. Cavitation involves the creation of bubbles which requires breaking of surface tension. So lower tension means more bubbles, and more cavitation. Distilled and deionized water have higher surface tensions making cavitation more difficult, making the use of a surfactant in fact more valuable. How to handle the surfactant safely (as with all chemicals), which surfactant is most suitable for vinyl ultrasonic cleaning, and so on, are then supplementary questions to this. For what its worth, triton x100 is an environmental hazard banned in the EU, tergikleen has been shown to leave residue, and ilfotol is probably the safest. Finally, alongside Patrick's first hand experience that surfactants do offer a benefit in an ultrasonic environment, there's an english journalist called Paul Rigby, who writes and youtubes as "The Audiophileman". He's also researched this area extensively and done hands-on test comparisons and gives a good summary on the use of surfactants, their audible beneifts, and their use across manual machines through to ultrasonic cleaners. For anyone interested in a dispassionate take, his stuff is well worth seeking out. There's no reason why people shouldn't try a surfactant and see if they can hear the difference themselves. It might be negligible enough not to bother. If so, fantastic. But people should not be put off by the panel members here saying it has no role to play in a cavitation process when it assuredly does with an action grounded in well established scientific theory. Thanks!

Great job pulling this discussion together! Great to come to a consensus that records should be cleaned. Also great to see the two Mikes not going at each other! I thought I heard Patrick say that the HumminGuru and Klaudio both cavitate at 40Hz with them having 2 tranducers for the humminguru and 4 for the Klaudio. I wonder if Mikey F would do a review of the HumminGuru himself for those of us that can't spend the Klaudio $$$

Damn! So pissed I missed this I have so many questions for these guys in particular and on this exact topic!!

This was great and thanks Mazzy, nice to see someone wanting to tackle this issue head on....

I have been using Triton X-100 with distilled water, exclusively, as my ultrasonic solution for quite some time, and have experienced nothing but optimal, phenomenal results (I run 30 minute cycles at 32 degrees Celsius, for my ultrasonic cleaning). I swear by it, so I'll never understand how anyone could think that distilled water alone can do the job, without wetting the molecular structure in order to enable it to really get into those tiny grooves, fully. I 100% reside within the "yes, surfactant is absolutely necessary for proper, effective ultrasonic cleaning" camp, personally.

As a record collector since 1968, I think today the vinyl thing has become over the top. I realize that used records are now more prevalent than in the seventies so some kind of cleaning is necessary. When I first started buying records most were new, I simply kept them sleeved and bushed any particles off. In the eighties I bought my first RCM a VPI 16.5. My cleaning process was a solution of a of about 1oz of 99% alcohol to a quart of distilled water followed by a rinse or two with distilled water. The last 12 years I’ve used the Systeme Desk cleaner (actually 4 different models because reliability is not their strong suit). All my records sound great. If I had to agonize more than that I go digital. Lets be realistic if you have amassed a large collection (5k to 10K) how many times are you realistically going to play most records in your lifetime? At my age 70 it’s unlikely that a record gets played more than twice.

Degritter updated the firmware of all of their machines (Mark I and Mark II) to be able to have two cycles: wash with one tank, then it stops and asks you to switch tanks (manually) and put a tank with just water for the rinse. This is available to anyone with any of the Degritter machines, just need to download the software and flash your machine. Degritter showed a machine at Munich 2022 that has two tanks and essentially does the above automatically. That is not in production yet but I imagine they will bring it to market - I would love such a machine.

Great. Fun and interesting discussion. And I have saved some money by watching, realising I don’t have to add any expensive branded chemicals to my Audio Desk. I have blindly, stupidly, followed the manufacturers recommendations.

I find cleaning records very satisfying, regardless of technique!

Thanks Mazzy for this. I think a combination of ultra sonic and physical agitation is the best method. I wet vac clean my records once using a project. Surface tension prevents a good deep wet clean so a surfactant is essential imo.

Great Debate! Tried a Humminguru / Turgikleen experiment this pm. I used to have a junkie ultrasonic from ebay, I cleaned the test album once with it months ago and it was still noisy every time I play it. I used my Humminguru w/straight distilled water, no dry. Then used a fresh reservoir of water and this time with one drop of Turgikleen (so not really diluted at all) and I could see the disc was absolutely soaked compared to the first cycle (again, no dry). Ended with two more cycles with fresh distilled water only and each pass I could see there was less water on the album than the first cycle, then dried. Sound was significantly improved, much more quiet.

Thanks for this Mazzy. I have had the Humminguru now for a few months and as soon as a new record arrives, even a double album, and no matter how anxious I am to hear it, I run it through the Guru, usually with 2 min clean and 5 min dry. If it looks dirty, I do 5/10. I learned something here despite having one for a while, and that is I do not replace my water frequently enough out of laziness! I probably should replace the water every 4 or 5 album cleanings. I have tried a few solutions but the instructions with the Guru say not to add any gunk, so I stick with distilled water only these days. Cheers

Thank you for this. One of the most informative video about ultrasonic cleaning. There is no need to add any type of chemical to a Ultrasonic machine.

Oh I have bought tergikleen but haven't tried it yet. The lady/fella that sells this stuff are a riot to communicate with. Very humorous and can give and take joking around.

I just started to watch this stream minutes ago, as I clean my records from Waxed. I don’t know where this stream will go, but if there’s a god, I hope it will help my MKII Degritter work just fine for as long as possible!!! This toy is magic!! 💪 is 🧨-mite, guys!! 😎

Thanks for hosting this Mazzy, it was fun and I hope folks got some useful information

This is a fascinating discussion. Oddly enough I just had an issue with Tergikleen on my records and was discussed at length on facebook. I had 2 new records that had a haze on both after cleaning in a tank with Tergikleen. I think the problem was I let them dry before rinsing.

This is all good information and I am still on the fence as to what is the best approach, although I am leaning toward eliminating the chemicals. I guess one thing to consider about the build-up of chemicals on a record is the fact that if you properly store your records post cleaning (outer sleeve and poly-lined inner) and you use a brush with every playing you will likely only need to do a thorough cleaning (chemical or ultrasonic) once. So, that being said I kinda think cleaning with chemicals , if you rinse properly, may not be a big deal.

Excellent discussion and thanks to Mazzy for getting the panel together. I won’t bore you with my preferred record cleaning process (I do use a Humminguru with the 10 min dry cycle) but one point that I haven’t seen raised here is to be sure the records are completely dry before playing them! Advice from a cartridge manufacturer I know was to let the records completely air dry before playing (and sleeving) them. I do this routinely now and let them air dry for at least an hour or two (longer the better) before resleeving (in new sleeves).